Pradyumna: (leads chanting)

ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä
bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san
prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya
sambhavämy ätma-mäyayä
[Bg. 4.6]

Translation: "Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original, transcendental form."

Prabhupäda: So Kåñëa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, explaining the method of His appearance and disappearance. People do not know it. Just like the sun. Because we do not see at night, formerly some people used to think "The sun is now dead, or gone." But later on, by scientific method, they have come to know the sun is always in the sky. Due to our different position, we do not see the sun at night. Otherwise, the sun is there. This is... If this is possible for an ordinary material thing, how much it is greatly possible for the Supreme Spirit.

Therefore ajo 'pi san. Kåñëa has no birth, no death. We have also no birth and death because we are part and parcel of Kåñëa. We have no birth and death; that is explained already in the Second Chapter of Bhagavad-gétä: Na jäyate na mriyate vä kadäcit...na hanyate hanyamäne çarére [Bg. 2.20].

So if the part and parcel particles, small atomic particle... We are atomic particle. Our magnitude is described in the çästra, Padma Puräëa and Upaniñad also: keçägra-çata-bhägasya çatäàçaù kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madya 19.140]. The top portion of the hair, if you divide it into one hundred parts, and again, that one hundredth part, if you divide again hundred parts, that is the magnitude of the spirit soul. Keçägra-çata-bhägasya çatäàçaù kalpitasya, bhägo jévaù sa vijïeyaù sa cänantyäya kalpate [Cc. Madya 19.140]. So we living entities, a small particle, very atomic small particle, one ten thousandth part of the top of the hair. It can simply be imagined. We are acintya. But we understand from Vedic literature what is the magnitude. It is not niräkära. That is not a fact. It has got äkära. But at our present position, material condition, we cannot measure it.

And because we cannot measure it... Just like in geometry, I have studied that point has no breadth and length. But actually there is breadth and length, but we cannot measure it. Similarly, the magnitude of the spirit soul is smaller than the point. We cannot measure it with our material measuring instruments. Anyway, even if you can, that is the magnitude.

So that small particle is described in the Bhagavad-gétä that na jäyate na mriyate. That small particle has also no birth and death. Na hanyate hanyamäne çarére [Bg. 2.20]. It is so powerful that that, because that small particle is within this body, dehino 'smin yathä dehe [Bg. 2.13], it is so healthy, so bright, moving so swiftly, acting so nicely, it has got so nice brain. And as soon as that small particle, atomic particle, is gone from this body, it is useless, a lump of matter.

So if so much power is there for the small particle of the Supreme Soul, how much the Supreme Soul, who is all-pervading, universal form, how much potency he has got, you can just imagine. Therefore Kåñëa says, ajo 'pi: "Although I have no birth and death." Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä. Ätmä means this body, ätmä means this mind, and ätmä means the soul. Three things, they are called ätmä. So Kåñëa's either body or mind or the soul, there is no difference. Kåñëa's body is avyaya. Our body is vyaya, it deteriorates, changes. (sound of children talking in background) Ask them to stop. Or no, let them go away.

Our body deteriorates, changes. Just like we are born, a small child, baby. It grows, it stays for some time. Then it makes some byproducts. From this body, we get some children, byproducts. Then we deteriorate in old age, and this body is finished. This is called ñaò-vikära, six kinds of changes of material body. But Kåñëa hasn't got such changes. Kåñëa's body is avyaya. His mind is avyaya. That means, as we have got difference between our soul and the body, Kåñëa hasn't got that. Avyayätmä. His mind, His body, and His ätmä, His soul, the same thing. Or, or the.... He is Supreme Soul, Whole. There is no difference between His body, His mind and soul. This is to be understood. Avyayätmä.

Those who cannot understand, they make difference between His ätmä, Kåñëa's ätmä, and Kåñëa's body. They think... The Mäyävädé philosophers, they say that "Kåñëa, He is God... Or godly." They have got the imagination. "But His body is made of matter." No. That is not. If His body had been made of matter, then how He could remember millions of years ago what He did? We cannot remember even what we did yesterday night or just this morning. We forget. The body's changing. The blood corpuscles are changing. That is scientific. But Kåñëa hasn't got that. Therefore He is explaining Himself. We can understand Kåñëa by Kåñëa's explanation. We should not make any rascal interpretation. Then we'll not be able to understand Kåñëa. Because our senses are imperfect.

Athäpi te deva padämbuja-dvaya-prasäda-leçänugåhéta eva hi jänäti tattvam. Either you have to understand Kåñëa from the Kåñëa personally.... That is not possible. Or one who has got, received the favor of Kåñëa, from him you can understand Kåñëa. Athäpi te deva padämbuja-dvaya-prasäda-leçänugåhéta eva hi. One who is favored with a little mercy of the lotus feet of Kåñëa, he can understand Kåñëa. Bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti [Bg. 18.55]. One who has taken shelter of Kåñëa, that means he is pure devotee. From him you can understand what is Kåñëa. Athäpi te deva padämbuja-dvaya-prasäda-leçänu... Prasäda-leça, minute quantity of mercy, one who has received from Kåñëa, he can understand.

Or here is Kåñëa explaining Himself, that what He is. Ajaù, He has no birth and death. One who thinks that "Kåñëa appeared, and He is now dead. Now another Kåñëa has appeared," that is not the fact. Kåñëa is one. He can expand Himself in many forms. That is different thing. But Kåñëa... Advaitam acyutam anädim ananta-rüpam [Bs 5.33]. Ananta haya. He has multi, innumerable forms, but still, He's one, advaita. Advaitam acyutam, He does not fall. He, Kåñëa... Suppose éçvaraù sarva-bhütänäà håd-deçe 'rjuna tiñöhati [Bg. 18.61], because Kåñëa has expanded Himself in many millions of forms to stay within the heart of the living being, that does not mean Kåñëa has fallen. Avyayätmä. He's the same Kåñëa. There is no difference.

Kåñëa is existing in innumerable universes. Kåñëa is existing everywhere; still, He's avyayätmä. From the original Kåñëa, although He has expanded into millions and trillions, unlimited, still, He's avyaya, without any minus. It is not like that we have got some bank balance, and if it is taken away millions times, then it is finished. No. Pürëasya pürëam ädäya pürëam evävaçiñyate. This is Kåñëa. This is the verdict of the Vedänta. Pürëasya pürëam ädäya pürëam idam, pürëät pürëam udacyate [Éçopaniñad, Invocation]. Everything which is emanating from Kåñëa, that is complete. There is no deficiency. Everything. Janmädy asya yataù [SB 1.1.1]. The Absolute Truth... That is Absolute Truth.

So in all the Vedas, Upaniñads, Saàhitäs, the same thing is described in different way. Nityo nityänäà cetanaç cetanänäm. In this way. Here Kåñëa Himself describes Himself that ajo 'pi and avyayätmä. Avyayätmä. It does... Kåñëa's body, mind, there is no difference, absolute. What is Kåñëa's body, that is Kåñëa's soul. What is Kåñëa's mind, that is Kåñëa's soul. Or what is Kåñëa's soul, that is Kåñëa's body, that is Kåñëa. Avyayätmä. Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä bhütänäm éçvaraù. Éçvaraù. He's not ordinary living being. Bhütänäm éçvaraù. That is the difference. He's éçvaraù. We are not éçvaraù. We may be éçvaraù. Éçvaraù means controller. But that, we are not the supreme éçvara. The supreme éçvara is called Kåñëa. Éçvaraù paramaù kåñëaù [Bs. 5.1]. We are not supreme éçvara.

The so-called incarnations of God, they declare that "I am God." But... He may be God. God means a subordinate god. Not the Supreme God. The Supreme God is Kåñëa. God means controller. You have, you may have some controlling power, admitted, but you are not Supreme Controller. The Supreme Controller is Éçvara. Therefore here Kåñëa... Therefore Kåñëa says, bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi. Éçvaraù. All bhütas... Bhütänäm means all living entities, or everything which has appeared within this material world. Janmädy asya yataù [SB 1.1.1]. He is the Supreme Source of everything. That is also described in the Tenth Chapter that aham ädir hi devänäm. Mattaù sarvaà pravartate. Everything. Mattaù parataraà nänyat kiïcid asti dhanaïjaya [Bg. 7.7].

These things are described. So we have to accept Kåñëa like that. And if we make our own interpretation, rascal-like, that will not help us to understand what is Kåñëa and what is Bhagavad-gétä. That is going on, generally. "Kåñëa has no existence." "Kåñëa, there was no Kåñëa. It is story." "There was no battlefield of Kurukñetra." These things are going on by, spoken by so-called political leaders and scholars. But that is not the fact. They do not understand Kåñëa, simply mislead people. Therefore the world is in chaotic condition.

Try to understand Kåñëa. Then your life will be successful. Kåñëa is explaining. Kåñëa is so kind that... Yadä yadä hi dharmasya [Bg. 4.7]. He'll explain that, why He comes. Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san sambhavämi yuge yuge, why? Just to remind us, what is Kåñëa. Just to teach us. Because we misunderstand. We are so fools and rascals. We misunderstand Kåñëa. We cannot understand. If we simply understand Kåñëa, then our life is successful. Tyaktvä dehaà punar janma naiti mäm eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. The simple thing. Just try to understand Kåñëa. This simple, one thing will make your life successful.

So Kåñëa is explaining Himself. Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä bhütänäm éçvaro... prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya. Prakåtià sväm. Personal, personal energy, or personal form. Kåñëa is... He has got His personal form, that Çyämasundara, with flute. That is described in the Brahma-saàhitä: cintämaëi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-våkña-lakñävåteñu surabhér abhipälayantam [Bs. 5.29]. He's very fond of tending cows. Surabhér abhipälayantam. Lakñmé-sahasra-çata-sambhrama-sevyamänaà govindam ädi-puruñaà tam aham... Veëuà kvaëantam. He's very fond of playing on flute. Aravinda-daläyatäkñam. His eyes are just like petals of the lotus flower. These are described in the Vedic literature.

So Kåñëa is not formless. It is not that the devotees of Kåñëa, by imagination, they have... As the Mäyävädé rascals say, that Kr..., "They have made a form by imagination." No. This is, this is described in the Vedas. So... And Kåñëa, when appeared on this planet, the same thing was visible. Those who have seen, authorities... Just like Vyäsadeva, Arjuna. He has seen personally. He has described in the Bhagavad-gétä: paraà brahma paraà dhäma pavitraà paramaà bhavän: [Bg. 10.12] "Your personality is unknown to the so-called scholars. But authorities like Vyäsa, Devala, Närada, Asita, they accept Your this form." It is very difficult... These things are there. You'll find in the Tenth Chapter.

So Kåñëa is not formless, but His... What kind of form He has got, He is describing Himself. Prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya. How we are... We are forced to take birth by the manipulation of the external, material energy.

prakåteù kriyamäëäni
guëaiù karmäëi sarvaçaù
ahaìkära-vimüòhätmä
kartäham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

Ahaìkära... We are under the clutches of the external energy, or material energy. Kåñëa has got multi-energies. Paräsya çaktir vividhaiva çrüyate.

Mäyä means energy also. mäyä means energy. And mäyä means illusion also. And mäyä means affection. There are different meanings of mäyä. So here it is said prakåtim... Prakåtim and mäyä. Prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya. He has got multi-energies. That energies have been divided into three: external energy, internal energy, and marginal energy. That you will, also, you will find in the Seventh Chapter.

Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakåtià paräm. Parä-prakåti and aparä-prakåti. The aparä-prakåti is this material energy. And the parä-prakåti is spiritual energy. There are two kinds of prakåti. So that spiritual... Because Kåñëa is spiritual whole, so His spiritual energy, prakåtià sväm, that internal potency, or the spiritual energy,... so His body is spiritual. His body is not material. Therefore avyayätmä, it is imperishable. These things are to be understood. Prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya sambhavämy ätma-mäyayä [Bg. 4.6]. Again He says ätma-mäyayä. He's not forced to take birth by the external energy. He appears by His own energy, internal energy, or spiritual energy. Therefore He's avyayätmä. Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san.

Still... We should not take Kåñëa as one of us because He is bhütänäm éçvaraù. Bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san. Just like a crude example may be given. When there was independence movement, Mahatma Gandhi went to jail, and many, many big leaders. But there are other criminals also, pickpockets and thieves and murderers. If they would think, "Now Mahatma Gandhi has come into jail. We are the same. We are the same." No. Similarly, when Kåñëa comes, if the rascals and fools think that "Kåñëa is also like us, as we have come into this material world," they are fools. No. We are forced. Just like criminal, a pickpocket or a thief, a rogue, a murderer. He is forced to... So of course, here, Mahatma Gandhi was also forced. But that is not the case. Because He is the controller. Bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san. He... The material energy cannot force Kåñëa. Because He's éçvaraù. He's the controller. A controller cannot be forced.

Just like in the British constitution it is said that "A king can do no wrong." Even king appears to do, have done something wrong, he does not come within the law. Similarly, although Kåñëa has killed so many demons, does not mean that He's criminal. He is still the bhütänäm éçvaraù. He's still. That is to be understood. Kåñëa, superficially, He has done so many things which is sinful for others. Just like this is... These are very, the great subject matters.

This was questioned by Parékñit Mahäräja. Parékñit Mahäräja, when He danced with the girls of Vrajabhümi, räsa dance, so Parékñit Mahäräja inquired from Çukadeva Gosvämé that "Kåñëa, who came to establish the principles of religion, how He danced with girls and wives of others?" That was explained that tejéyasäà na doñäya. Tejéyasäà na doñäya. Kåñëa danced with others' wife or sister or other girls. They were all girls. They came at mid of, midnight to dance with Him. But they were also not material. That is spiritual. It requires little brain to understand. So Parékñit Mahäräja... Çukadeva Gosvämé explained that these things should not be considered by the conditioned souls. They should not even dream of this. It is a different thing. And if you think that Kåñëa has a fault because He danced with others' wives, so he explained that tejéyasäà na doñäya. Tejéyasäm... The... A thing which is very, very powerful, he is not contaminated. That is the conclusion.

Just like the sun. The sun soaks water from urine. We pass urine somewhere, and the sun soaks the water, the urine. That... That is poisonous. That is infectious. But that sun does not become infected. Because he's so powerful. If that is possible for ordinary material things, how much powerful is Kåñëa? So we should not discuss the räsa-lélä generally. Because unless one is advanced in spiritual consciousness and Kåñëa consciousness, they should not try to understand what is räsa-lélä. It is very confidential. It is meant for the liberated souls, those who are liberated by devotional service. Actually, those who are engaged in devotional service, they are liberated. They are not within the material world.

mäà ca yo 'vyabhicäreëa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guëän samatétyaitän
brahma-bhüyäya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

So this räsa-lélä is to relished by the paramahaàsas, liberated souls. Nivåtta-tarñair upagéyamänät. Västavaà vedyam. Dharmaù projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsaräëäm [SB 1.1.2]. Paramo nirmatsaräëäm. Västavaà vastu vedyam atra.

So we should not jump. First of all we should read Bhagavad-gétä very carefully. Try to understand Kåñëa, what is Kåñëa. Then we shall be fit to understand what is Bhägavatam. The last conclusion of Bhagavad-gétä is sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If we can surrender to Kåñëa wholeheartedly, then we become eligible to understand what is Kåñëa. That is the... Bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti [Bg. 18.55]. We, if we are advanced in devotional service, then we become fit to understand Kåñëa.

But still, just to make us fit to understand Kåñëa, Kåñëa is describing Himself, what He is. Ajo 'pi sann avyayätmä bhütänäm éçvaro 'pi san, prakåtià sväm adhiñöhäya. He comes with His own energy. He's not forced by the external energy. We are forced. Prakåteù kriyamäëäni guëaiù karmäëi sarvaçaù [Bg. 3.27]. We, as we develop different modes of nature by the association of this external energy, we get our particular body. Karmaëä daiva-netreëa jantur dehopapatti [SB 3.31.1]. But Kåñëa does not do so.

We have to first of all understand it that Kåñëa is not forced by karma. We are forced by karma. Therefore we have got different bodies. But Kåñëa is not... Although He appears in different incarnation... Keçava dhåta-ména-çaréra, keçava dhåta-kürma-çaréra, keçava dhåta-varäha-çaréra, nåsiàha-çaréra. So Kåñëa, when He comes as a boar incarnation, He's not ordinary hog and pig. These things are to be understood. He is the bhütänäm éçvaraù in whatever form He likes to come. That is His pleasure. Ätma-mäyayä. He comes in His ätma-mäyayä, not by force by the external energy. That is the conclusion. (pause) You read the purport...

Pradyumna: "The Lord has spoken about the peculiarity of His birth. Although He may appear like an ordinary person, He remembers everything of His many, many past births."

Prabhupäda: That is the test, that He has already explained that He remembers. Therefore His appearance, disappearance, birth, is not ordinary. That is to be understood. Otherwise, how He can remember? We cannot remember. We do not know what we were in our last birth, or millions of years ago. Although we are also eternal. But we do not remember. Therefore there is difference between Kåñëa's birth and our birth.

When Kåñëa appeared as the son of Devaké and Vasudeva, He appeared before them as four-handed Näräyaëa. Kåñëa did not come from the womb of Devaké. You have, most of you have read in the Çrémad-Bhägavatam His appearance. He appeared before them as four-handed Näräyaëa. Then Devaké prayed, "My Lord, You have come. Kaàsa is now eager to kill You. As soon as..." As a mother, she's speaking simply the truth, that "Kaàsa is now eager to kill You. As soon as He will see You four-handed, immediately he will kill You." Because as woman, and simple woman... The four-handed Näräyaëa cannot be killed, but she was thinking that "Because You, now You have appeared as Näräyaëa, four-handed, You'll be immediately killed. Kindly become two-handed." So immediately Kåñëa became two-handed. Therefore Kåñëa accepted to be an ordinary child. But He's not ordinary child. Go on.

Pradyumna: "He remembers everything of His many, many past births, whereas a common man cannot remember what he has done even a few hours before."

Prabhupäda: Yes That is the difference between Kåñëa and ourselves. We do not remember what we have done a few hours ago. What to speak of millions of years ago. But we take our birth because we are eternal. We have taken many births. That is the difference between Kåñëa's birth and our birth. Then?

Pradyumna: "If someone is asked what he did exactly at the same time one day earlier, it would be very difficult for a common man to answer immediately. He would surely have to dredge his memory to recall what he was doing exactly at the same time one day before. And yet, men often dare claim to be God, or Kåñëa. One should not be misled by such meaningless claims."

Prabhupäda: Yes. These, considering these verses from the Bhagavad-gétä, we should not foolishly accept these so-called cheaters as God. That is not very nice thing. These are the symptoms of God, how He takes His birth. Janma karma me divyaà yo jänäti tattvataù. We should try to understand what is God. We should not take so cheaply that "Here is God incarnation. Here is..." No. That is misleading. Then?

Pradyumna: "And then again the Lord explains His prakåti, or His form. Prakåti means nature as well as svarüpa, or one's own form. The Lord says that He appears in His own body. He does not change His body as the common living entity changes from one body to another. The conditioned soul may have one kind of body in the present birth, but he has a different body in the next birth."

Prabhupäda: Here, our body, now we have got human body. So next, next life it may be a demigod's body, or it may be cat's body, dog's body. The body changes. Kåñëa does not... Avyayätmä. That is the difference. Go on.

Pradyumna: "In the material world a living entity has no fixed body, but transmigrates from one body to another. The Lord, however, does not do so. Whenever He appears, He does so in the same original body by His internal potency. In other words, Kåñëa appears in this material world in His original eternal form with two hands holding a flute. He appears exactly in His eternal body, uncontaminated by this material world. Although He appears in the same transcendental body and is Lord of the universe, it still appears that..."

Prabhupäda: How He can be contaminated by the modes of material nature? Because Kåñëa says that

daivé hy eñä guëamayé
mama mäyä duratyayä
mäm eva ye prapadyante
mäyäm etäà taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]

If somebody surrenders to Kåñëa, He becomes free from the touch of mäyä. Simply by surrendering to Kåñëa, if one becomes liberated from the clutches of mäyä, how Kåñëa can be under the clutches of mäyä? This is foolishness. Those who say that "Kåñëa also accepts this material body," that, that is not the fact.

And another thing is, either the material energy or the spiritual energy, both are Kåñëa's energies. So even He appears like that, He has accepted the material body, that material body does not act as material body. He can change matter into spirit and spirit into matter. Because He is the controller, éçvaraù. Bhütänäm éçvaraù. He can change that.

Just like electrician. He can change a refrigerator into a heater, and a heater into a refrigerator. Because the same power, electricity, is working. He knows the art, how to change it. But we cannot do that. That is the difference between Kåñëa and ourselves. Hm. Then?

Pradyumna: "Although He appears in the same transcendental body and is Lord of the universe, it still appears that He takes His birth like an ordinary living entity. Despite the fact Lord Kåñëa grows from childhood to boyhood, and from boyhood to youth, astonishingly enough, He never ages beyond youth. At the time of the Battle of Kurukñetra, He had many grandchildren at home, or, in other words, He had sufficiently aged by material calculations. Still, He looked just like a young man, twenty or twenty-five years old. We never see a picture of Kåñëa in old age because He never grows old like us, although He is the oldest person in the whole creation, past, present and future. Neither His body nor His intelligence ever deteriorates or changes. Therefore it is clear that in spite of His being in this material world, He is the same unborn eternal form of bliss and knowledge, changeless in His transcendental body and intelligence. Factually, His appearance and disappearance is like the sun's rising, moving before us and then disappearing from our eyesight. When the sun is out of sight, we think that the sun has set, and when the sun is before our eyes, we think that the sun is on the horizon."

Prabhupäda: Kåñëa does not appear or disappear. Our eyesight changes. Just like we are looking through the window. One horse race is going on. When the horse comes before the window, we can see. And when it passes through, from our eyesight, we think that horse is no longer existing. But the horse is running. This example should be taken. Kåñëa is called nitya-lélä. He is taking His birth, He is fighting in the battle of Kurukñetra, He's dancing with the gopés. That is going on eternally in either of the so many, innumerable universes. So the same time...

Just like the change of time. Now it is nine o'clock in the watch. Now, this nine o'clock, this is now night. The morning nine o'clock is still existing somewhere. Similarly, Kåñëa's lélä, Kåñëa's pastime, is going on. Everything is going on at the same moment. Therefore His lélä is called nitya-lélä. Nitya means eternal. It does not change. Go on.

Pradyumna: "Actually, the sun is always in its fixed position, but owing to our defective, insufficient senses, we calculate the appearance and disappearance of the sun in the sky. And because His appearance and disappearance are completely different from that of any ordinary common living entity, it is evident that He is eternal blissful knowledge by His internal potency, and He is never contaminated by material nature. The Vedas also confirm that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is unborn. Yet, He still appears to take His birth in multi-manifestations. The Vedic supplementary literatures also confirm that even though the Lord appears to be taking His birth, He is still without change of body. In the Bhägavatam, He appears before His mother as Näräyaëa with four hands and the decoration of the six kinds of full opulences. His appearance in His original eternal form is His causeless mercy, according to the Viçvakoça dictionary. The Lord is conscious of all of His previous appearances and disappearances, but a common living entity forgets everything about his past body as soon as he gets another body. He is the Lord of all living entities because He performs wonderful and superhuman activities while He is on this earth. Therefore the Lord is always the same Absolute Truth, and is without differentiation between His form and self or between His quality and body. The question may now be raised as to why the Lord appears and disappears in His form. This is explained in the next verse."